On this episode of the podcast I speak with Professor Frederike Ambagtsheer about the illegal trade and trafficking in human organs. Frederike has a background in criminology and public international law, has a doctorate on organ trade, and is currently researching organ trafficking at Erasmus MC's Transplant Institute in Rotterdam, The Netherlands. In this conversation we discuss what is currently know about the trade in human organs, focusing on the kidney trade. We cover the experience of some of the victim groups, how operations and transactions take place, and some of the health and financial implications of the trade. Our main focus is the impact of criminalization on human suffering. In particular, we explore whether evidence based alternatives to prohibition might exist that have better population health outcomes. Note: At around 7:50 and 8:32 Frederike talks about “voluntary” kidney sales using air quotations to indicate that the voluntary nature of donations is extremely questionable, and often occurs under severe financial duress or various forms of coercion.